Navigating Toxic Work Environments in the PhD Journey

Summary

In this episode, Nóra interviews Hanna Sänger, an entrepreneur and former scientist, about her startup that aims to improve the well-being of PhD students. They discuss the challenges and struggles faced by PhD students, including toxic work environments, mental health issues, and the pressure to perform. Hanna shares her own experience of leaving her PhD due to a toxic environment and finding a new career path in mental health counseling. They also discuss the importance of multidisciplinary teams, networking, and seeking help. The episode highlights the need for support and resources to improve the mental health of PhD students. The conversation explores the mental health challenges faced by PhD students and offers strategies for support and self-care. Topics discussed include the impact of COVID-19 on PhD students, the difficulties of fitting into a new culture, gender-specific mental challenges, the work-life balance, and the overlap of childbearing age and PhD studies. The conversation concludes with suggestions for PhD students to invest in self-discovery, set healthy boundaries, communicate expectations with supervisors, find peer support, and ask for help when needed.

LinkedIn Kristin Vielberg: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristin-vielberg-3689a0258/
LinkedIn Laura Summa: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-laura-summa-5471b9a7/
LinkedIn Hanna Sänger: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hanna-s%C3%A4nger-8b62761a4/
Website Hanna: https://goodthoughts-coaching.de/

Nature PhD Survey 2019: Their results summarized: https://figshare.com/s/74a5ea79d76ad66a8af8?file=18543281

Keywords

PhD students, well-being, toxic work environment, mental health, startup, challenges, struggles, multidisciplinary teams, networking, seeking help, PhD students, mental health, COVID-19, fitting into a new culture, gender-specific challenges, work-life balance, childbearing age, self-discovery, healthy boundaries, communication, peer support, asking for help

Takeaways

• PhD students often face challenges and struggles, including toxic work environments and mental health issues.
• Multidisciplinary teams, networking, and seeking help are important for success and well-being in the PhD journey.
• There is a need for support and resources to improve the mental health of PhD students.
• Leaving a toxic environment and finding a new career path can be a healthy and empowering decision.
• PhD students should pay attention to their own well-being

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro and Background
• 4:00 The Startup's Aim and Team
• 6:12 The Challenges and Struggles of PhD Students
• 8:25 The Journey of Starting a Startup
• 12:16 Recognizing the Signs of Struggle and Seeking Help
• 15:19 The Mentally Challenging Nature of a PhD
• 20:07 Working in Diverse Teams and Cultural Differences
• 22:22 The Struggles of International PhD Students
• 24:29 Fitting into a New Culture: Challenges and Strategies
• 26:22 Gender-Specific Mental Challenges in Academia
• 29:13 The Work-Life Balance and Childbearing Age

Transcript

Nóra (00:02.411)
Hello everyone, welcome to the next episode of ImmunoChat, the official podcast of the Young Immunologist for the German Association of Immunology. Our previous episode on mental health was a great hit and I'm excited to continue on this topic. Because we immunologists know exactly which cells do what, but sometimes we all struggle how to handle the big challenges in life. Toxic colleagues, financial struggles, toxic colleagues,

Financial struggles, work -work balance can just really make our PhD journey a rollercoaster drive and have an impact also on our performance. Luckily, more and more startups see the problem and the potential in it. Today we talk to Hannah, Exist Woman this year and entrepreneur, your project that aims to improve well -being of PhD students. Hi Hannah, thanks for joining this episode. What can we know about you?

Hanna Sänger (01:00.924)
Hi, thank you for having me. It's a great honor to be on your podcast. Yeah, my name is Hannah Zenger. I used to be a scientist. I used to work in molecular biology within the immunology niche, but I quit my PhD because the environment was super toxic and it was a really hard decision to leave science. But looking back,

I would say that it was the most important and most healthy decision that I ever made. So it's really good. I always saw myself as a scientist and saw no plan B. So it was particularly hard to admit that things were not going well. Yeah, but it got to a point where I couldn't, we just did not work anymore. So I quit with a little bit of a burnout.

And it took me, I think about a year after that to get back on my feet and acknowledge science or the science environment is no longer for me. And then I, yeah, made the decision to train as a mental health counselor. So a psychological counselor or personal coach, you can call it, and decided to share my experiences.

and give back all the things that I could learn during therapy and during my training.

Nóra (02:34.411)
Yeah, that's so sad and so exciting in the same time, because you have always seen yourself as a scientist. And at the end, due to this toxic environment that I think many of us know in PhD journey and academic research, just moved you to a completely different career path. I can completely relate to that because I'm a bioinformatician by training and started my first PhD in bioinformatics.

And then after six months of super toxic roller coaster ride, my prof just said that I will do everything that you cannot get a PhD position in Bonn. And yes, it was really a wow experience. I was 24 from Hungary. My German was still really broken. And with family and child, it was not an option to go out of Bonn.

Hanna Sänger (03:09.34)
Mm -hmm.

Hanna Sänger (03:17.148)
Wow.

Nóra (03:30.347)
And that was also how immunology came into my life because my bioinformatics professor couldn't say anything in the immunology field. And that's why I moved and found a new passion at how much interested I am in this field. And for you also the same, that you just found something new where you can also help others. I think it's kind of amazing, even if it has a sad background, but I can completely relate to that. Thanks for sharing.

Hanna Sänger (03:54.288)
Yeah.

Nóra (04:00.555)
So what's the aim of your startup? How is the team?

Hanna Sänger (04:04.38)
So we're a team of three. There's me, so I'm from the field of biology. Then there is Laura Zummer. She's a philosopher. And her PhD thesis dealt with the concept of happiness and a happy life. I hope I'm saying that correctly. And there's also a Christine Vielberg. She did her PhD in geodesy. I hope it's pronounced like that.

Nóra (04:33.675)
what is that? I've never heard about it.

Hanna Sänger (04:37.212)
It's similar to... Okay, you will need to cut this out because I don't know how to say what she does.

Nóra (04:44.235)
Okay. Okay.

Hanna Sänger (04:50.972)
Let me let me check actually how to I don't know how to describe it.

Nóra (04:53.003)
It's, yeah.

Hanna Sänger (04:58.876)
I'm sorry.

Hanna Sänger (05:08.54)
So it's a...

I'm sorry, I'm not well prepared for this.

Nóra (05:13.291)
No, it's okay.

Hanna Sänger (05:21.104)
It says here, signs of measuring and representing the earth. So...

Hanna Sänger (05:31.868)
Yeah, she did her PhD in geodesy and some sort of satellite research.

Yeah, so we come from three very different fields and we are aiming to found a startup that improves the happiness and mental health of PhD students because we all brought so many different experiences to our little group and we can draw a lot from that and decided to give something back by sharing those experiences and giving coaching.

and workshops for our PhD students.

Nóra (06:12.683)
super exciting because at one side, I would say that a PhD is also like a self development and it's a painful process. It's something, you know, if you go out of your comfort zone, it's painful, but still what we have just both mentioned, what we have experienced with the toxic working environment and a lot of struggles and self esteem questions that shouldn't happen.

Hanna Sänger (06:28.284)
Mm -hmm.

Nóra (06:41.291)
And I think the same that there we really need such organizations like you who can support PhD students with kind of soft skills. How can I handle those challenges? So how did the idea of your startup come? However, I have some already some guesses, but tell me.

Hanna Sänger (06:58.876)
So we met at a workshop by young entrepreneurs in science, which is a program to foster entrepreneurial mindset among PhD students so that they don't only see the scientific value of their research, but only what they can give to society and explore different...

different career paths that are with one foot in science, but with another foot in startups and industry. So they have super cool workshops and we met there. I had known Christine before, but not Laura. And in this workshop, we spent a whole day working on this idea to improve happiness in PhD students. And in the first moment, I think it was just this, there's this idea, let's...

work on it during one day just as an exercise for design thinking. But then we realized, wow, we all three have this super strong passion to actually do this. And then, yeah, one of the startup coaches approached us after the workshop and said, hey, if you need any help, like actually pursuing this, we're here for you. And so we talked about it some more and we were like, yeah, let's do it. It's a really cool idea. And yeah.

Nóra (08:22.827)
Super cool. Yeah.

Hanna Sänger (08:24.892)
It's sort of a, yeah, we all felt the same passion for it. And while talking about it, we realized, wow, this is super important for us and we want to keep at it. Yeah. So we all had different struggles during our PhDs. I mean, the other two completed their PhD. I didn't. But we realized that we have this big pool of experiences.

that we can draw from.

Nóra (08:57.579)
Super nice. I already hear three important lessons from startups. One of them is a multidisciplinary team. I think it's one of the key for success. And I think it's really nice. The second one is networking. Networking, networking. It's very important just to go out and show yourself. And the number three is get help. If someone is coming to you and offering help, just take it. Because...

Hanna Sänger (09:01.66)
Mm -hmm.

Hanna Sänger (09:16.572)
Absolutely.

Nóra (09:26.987)
We are all working together, have the same aim. It's amazing, very nice starting. So do you have any numbers in your head how many PhDs are affected with mental health issues? So in our round it's 100%. Or is there a difference between the faculties or good practices? What do we know?

Hanna Sänger (09:35.228)
Absolutely.

Hanna Sänger (09:44.188)
hahahaha

so first of all, from my own experience talking about this idea that we had, and all three of us had this experience whenever we talked about it. So we were hesitant in the beginning, like, yeah, we have this idea, but then we saw the reaction we got every time we talked about it. And it was always like, I had the similar experience. I was, I know someone who's had this experience. So like, wow, this is really important. And there's really a need for improvement.

So that was a lot of confirmation for us that we were onto something. And yeah, there are a couple of studies. I think the most well -known one is the Nature PhD study. The last one was 2019. It was published 2019. And they say that 36 % of PhD students who participated in this study,

have sought help for anxiety or depression, which is already a really large number, I feel. And these are.

Nóra (10:52.267)
Yeah more than one third, yeah it's a lot.

Hanna Sänger (10:56.38)
These are only the people that actively sought help. And I think there's a lot of people who are not aware of what they should look for in themselves, like for signs that they're not feeling well. I mean, obviously, a lot of people know if they're not feeling well, but there's many who don't take steps to get help.

Yeah, the study also said that a fifth of the participants have encountered bullying. And this bullying came from supervisors or from other students or from other academic staff. And about 60 % of the students who encountered it did not feel able to talk up.

and to share what they experienced. Yeah.

Nóra (11:46.315)
Right.

And I think, so for me, it was really like a longer journey until I recognized that, okay, something is off and something is not going well. And it's, it's not only my, my fault. So, you know, it, it just started that on Mondays, I just felt a bit sick. I didn't want to go to work. And I was like, come on, it's my PhD. I really need to burn for that. Cause that's, that's the work I.

Hanna Sänger (12:08.956)
Mm -hmm.

Nóra (12:16.715)
I want to give my very best and if I don't want to go to work on Monday or I'm really looking forward Friday, it's sometimes okay. But if it's happening every day, or I just, I have seen that, okay, maybe my colleagues don't go without me for a coffee break. And so, so it's such little signs where I would not say, okay, now I feel depressed, but I just feel like awkward.

And I think it's really a long learning pattern until you can learn to recognize, okay, something is not working right. So what are the typical signs that someone is struggling and needs help?

Hanna Sänger (12:55.9)
Yeah, so I definitely feel what you're saying. If you feel that there is this inner resistance to go to work and something that you started out being passionate about gives you anxiety when you think about it and think of returning to the lab or you have anxiety about the next meeting with your supervisor, maybe. I mean, that's already...

Nóra (13:20.011)
Right.

Hanna Sänger (13:23.068)
pretty good sign that things are not moving smoothly. Which is not to say that a PhD is not a walk in the park. I mean, how many people do you know who say, my PhD was super easy peasy. I mean, it is tough because there are a lot of challenges in doing a PhD.

Nóra (13:41.259)
Yeah, it just came 1 .0 summa cumma.

Hanna Sänger (13:52.732)
But I think it's most important to pay attention to how you're feeling and learn what your needs are and what boundaries you need. And, you know, listen to what your body and your mind are telling you. If they are telling you, I'm afraid of the next meeting, I get anxious or I feel depressed and I no longer want to see my friends because my work -life balance is so bad, I don't feel I have the energy for it.

Nóra (14:22.123)
Yeah.

Hanna Sänger (14:22.204)
You know, if you can't recharge your social batteries with your friends and pressure starts to build up and build up. Yeah. Take a good look at yourself and be honest and be courageous to admit that. No, it's not easy to admit that you're struggling. But I think it's a sign of great strength to admit that you're struggling and to seek help.

Nóra (14:50.731)
Right, especially from the international point of view, I think for many international students, parents just put together a lot of money, yeah, go to Germany, make your PhD. And at the very beginning, I really thought, okay, it's normal. It's that's how a PhD must be. That's how life in abroad must be, or should be or can be. And I just need to, I need to bite through myself and I need to get it done.

Hanna Sänger (15:01.5)
Okay.

Nóra (15:19.499)
Until I've learned with my second PhD that no, it can be much more fun actually. So it's of course still challenging, but I enjoyed every day I could go to the lab there and it was not to compare with my first PhD. So I don't know any other career paths except science, but why is it mentally so challenging to make a PhD or how is it to compare with other career paths?

Hanna Sänger (15:30.556)
Mm -hmm.

Hanna Sänger (15:51.132)
so I think first of all, when people start a PhD, they come from university where they've had, you know, lots of lectures and they've had some lab projects, but not, not bigger lab projects. So up to that point, people haven't had the sole responsibility for their own and a long project.

So it's something very new, you know, now you are in that lab, you have your own project and you have the responsibility for it. You need to make it work.

So it's a totally different situation in terms of the responsibility you have, and it's also a very different environment. So at university, you're mostly self -organized, you're studying, you have your master project, but you're being supervised a lot. And a lot of people haven't learned any...

working culture or responding skill set, if you know what I mean. So it's different. Suddenly you're in a team and you need to manage yourself and you need to manage upwards a bit as well. And that's not something a lot of people learn during their studies. Yeah, and additionally, you're in that phase of your life where you may be thinking about starting a family and you have all sorts of concerns that are

Nóra (16:56.267)
yes.

Hanna Sänger (17:20.668)
not your PhD, but the PhD sort of becomes this super big project that comes before everything else. And I think that view can be a bit problematic. I mean, as nice as it is to have this passion for the topic and want to give all your energy into it. So I think that passion is on the one side, amazing. It means amazing research is being done and a lot of energy is being invested in it.

But on the other hand, that passion is sadly easily exploited. So it's easy to push someone with a passion to super long working hours. So that's something that you need to be aware of.

Nóra (18:02.347)
Yeah, this.

Nóra (18:06.667)
I've also learned that this kind of passion is the shortest way to burn out.

Hanna Sänger (18:11.636)
Yeah, well put, well put. Yeah. And then there's, yeah. I mean, there are some factors like, hey, I'm in my twenties or thirties and this is an important time in my life. And this is true for everyone in that age, I guess. But there are things that are very PhD specific. And I think the most prominent of that is the publish or perish culture.

Nóra (18:16.971)
And yeah.

Nóra (18:39.819)
yes.

Hanna Sänger (18:41.244)
So the performance pressure to do experiments and not just do experiments but have results that matter for the scientific world. And I mean, think about it. How much that is to ask to do a couple of experiments in two or three years and then have a big impact on science in the world. That's so much to ask.

Nóra (19:02.923)
Right.

Nóra (19:07.691)
Yeah, yeah, make a big impact. Yeah. And it's, I think for me in PhD, the worst was that I have to make it on my own because that's my own academic project where I can prove I can work independently. Otherwise to make really a big impact, you need to collaborate and work together. And then of course you need to decide, decide who is the first author and last author and, and, and, and, and it was for me such a, it was a real bullshit.

Hanna Sänger (19:11.164)
Yeah.

Nóra (19:36.939)
when you need to discuss about it. And I think this publisher perish, it just really moved me out of academic science. It's really a bad thing. Or to learn that. So I really like sharing my thoughts. So I started with blogging or with the podcast. It doesn't need to be nature science cell. There are so many different ways to communicate your research on talks, posters, science slams. Why not?

Hanna Sänger (19:47.964)
Yeah.

Nóra (20:06.987)
Why is it not valued?

Hanna Sänger (20:10.684)
Yeah, I feel the same way. I think science moves forward when we exchange ideas and not if everyone is being super protective of the results that doesn't move us forward. But there's, in my experience, there is a lot of mistrust between research groups and it takes a lot of rules to, not official rules, but you know,

Nóra (20:15.851)
Yeah.

Nóra (20:21.163)
Right, right.

Nóra (20:31.787)
Mm -hmm.

Hanna Sänger (20:39.516)
implicit rules to, in a collaboration to share what will be the result in a way and it becomes so political.

Nóra (20:40.907)
Yes.

Nóra (20:50.955)
Yes, and it's not about science anymore. It's about politics, self -fulfilling prophecies, writing the papers from the results to the introduction, so like backwards. What did we find and what we were looking for? Yeah, it's really, I think it's indeed a main point of burnout. But you have mentioned so many interesting things. So one of them is working in diverse teams that we don't really learn how to do it.

Hanna Sänger (20:54.876)
Mm -hmm.

Hanna Sänger (21:02.908)
You

Nóra (21:21.099)
because we study biology or informatics. And then when a biologist or immunologist and informatician and the psychologist come together, they just don't really have the same language. And then it also comes with intercultural collaborations when you have someone from Asian country or Eastern Europe or German. It's just we are just completely

different and were raised differently and we have a completely different mindset on mental health as well. So is there a difference between international and national PhD students? So I assume if someone comes to Germany for a PhD, then they don't have friends or the social batteries just stay empty for the first time. Do they have different kind of struggles and do they need

different type of support.

Hanna Sänger (22:21.852)
And so I think that they have additional struggles. I mean, we talked about some of the struggles that is sort of common for a PhD, especially in molecular biology or immunology or that sort of biomedical environment. I think that's highly competitive and in other areas, maybe in the social sciences or, you know, chemistry or whatever other field we're thinking of, it can be different.

Nóra (22:37.227)
Mm -hmm.

Hanna Sänger (22:51.26)
But yeah, for international students, there's what you already mentioned. They come to a new country and need to build their local social cycle. Like from zero, you come to a country and you don't know anyone. That's super hard. There can be a language barrier depending on where you come from and where you go. And cultural differences, like how to, it starts with how do people greet each other?

in a social group, things you have to learn. Yeah. So there's a lot of insecurities coming from that already. And then you probably have a really long way home and can only see your family once a year or maybe every two years. That's, yeah, not. Yeah. Exactly.

Nóra (23:24.619)
And no one tells you.

Nóra (23:41.259)
If COVID doesn't hit, yeah. It was interesting that you just also mentioned that in 2019, the Nature study came out and since then nothing, because I think COVID must have a big impact on this generation of PhD students, how they did it.

Hanna Sänger (23:50.62)
Mm -hmm.

Hanna Sänger (23:58.864)
Yeah, I agree. I think the next results should be out soon -ish, I hope. I think they're doing it every couple of years, so I'm curious to see what that study shows us. Yeah, getting back to that fitting into a new culture thing. I mean, if you're a German PhD student and you go to another German city, of course, you also have to build...

Nóra (24:07.819)
Not so.

Mm -hmm.

Nóra (24:20.203)
Yeah.

Hanna Sänger (24:28.22)
like a new local social group. But there are less barriers to join extracurricular activities like exercise or something. There's no language barrier. You can just join them. And that makes it a lot easier. And if you're already German, you know how to deal with German bureaucracy and all that stuff, like getting settled in a new city. I mean, yeah, lots of boring formalities.

And for internationals, this is, I think, a big struggle, the bureaucracy. And also there's that big topic of being in a country with a visa, with a working visa, that it adds additional pressure because you have to perform to stay in the country and you have to keep the job and you have to make it work. So that's...

Nóra (25:12.875)
Yes, it's a lot of stress.

Hanna Sänger (25:26.396)
that's so much more pressure on international students.

Nóra (25:29.483)
Yeah, so true. So we were discussing the differences between multicultural or intercultural groups. And we were also talking about if we have different fields, how to work together. But how about the gender? Because I mean, we are now in a ladies' row. We are now in a ladies' row.

Hanna Sänger (25:44.508)
Mm -hmm.

Nóra (25:54.731)
But I will never forget when I talked to my male PhD colleague about my imposter syndrome, when I just feel not to be good enough and I'm afraid that someone will realize it, that I don't belong to this group. Of course, I moved to molecular biomedicine from informatics and then I always said, OK, am I too dumb? And when I talked about it, he was laughing so loud and couldn't understand what I'm talking about.

So are there gender specific mental challenges in academia or during the PhD? Do we have any knowledge about that?

Hanna Sänger (26:31.996)
So you already mentioned imposter syndrome and I think for a long time it was viewed as something specific for women. I tried to find some data on it but apparently the new latest research findings are that it's not linked to gender. So a lot of men and women have it both.

Yeah, and it means that they feel like they don't belong and they are not as competent. I've encountered it too. And it comes with the constant fear of being exposed as, yeah, someone not right in this place of work. I've had that too. And I think it increases the pressure to perform and to prove that you're worth it. And that, yeah, adds a lot of strain mentally. I found an article.

by nature that says that toxic workplaces are the main reason why women leave academic jobs. So they feel driven out of academia by problems with the workplace culture more often than men because there is no balance between work and life and work and family. Overall, from my experience, I would say that there's a...

Nóra (27:32.811)
Mm -hmm.

Hanna Sänger (27:56.444)
social stigma about mental health that makes it harder for men to talk about their mental health than it is for women Yeah, is that your experience as well?

Nóra (28:04.682)
Yeah, that's so true. Yeah. Yeah, indeed. I think the same that even if a man has a struggle, they just less frequently talk about it because they are also prone to show strong. Yeah.

Hanna Sänger (28:17.084)
Thank you.

Hanna Sänger (28:24.124)
So I don't have any scientific data for that, but that's my impression. Women are more likely to exchange on their mental well -being than men are. And I mean, if you keep all that stuff bottled up in yourself, that's not a healthy way to cope.

Nóra (28:27.611)
Yeah.

Nóra (28:36.915)
Right.

Nóra (28:46.315)
And you have just also mentioned regarding female male differences, the work -life balance and work -family balance. Because, I mean, of course, dads and father also can take care of the children, but pregnancy, childbearing age is just a complete match with the time when you can make your PhD, like 20s-30s. That's also for women, it's the...

Hanna Sänger (29:11.356)
Mm -hmm.

Nóra (29:13.771)
the timeframe when you want to or when you can have a family. And especially in molecular biomedicine, if you are in the lab, it's not working at all. But also next to your PhD, I heard it so many times that first I get my PhD done and then I will have a child, but then it's sometimes already too late. So are there mental health issues during PhD just related to our pre -life crisis or we could have them as well?

Hanna Sänger (29:30.46)
Mm -hmm.

Nóra (29:43.083)
without a PhD. So how is it with the childbearing age and PhD overlap?

Hanna Sänger (29:54.396)
Yeah, I think it's, like I said before, a lot of PhD students put their PhD project at their top priority in life. That means that starting a family is a hard decision to make during that time. I mean, if it's planned, if it's unplanned, I mean, it's, yeah, totally different question. And...

Nóra (30:05.163)
Yes.

Hanna Sänger (30:22.62)
From my experience from the work environment that I know, it's not encouraged to hire someone who has children or is planning to have children. And everyone is aware that they are not allowed to ask these kinds of questions when interviewing for a PhD position. But in my experience, it influences the decision of who is hired.

Nóra (30:49.643)
I think the same or I have experienced the same, especially if you need someone who works in the lab, then it's always a challenging thing, especially for a starting lab. So we have discussed now mental challenges during PhD from many different aspects, but what can we do? What can a PhD student do? And just tell me like five things. What can we do?

Hanna Sänger (31:16.668)
I'm sorry.

Nóra (31:17.835)
for our mental health during PhD. What are the things?

Hanna Sänger (31:23.356)
So the first thing I would say is to invest some time and effort in self -discovery. Yeah, I already mentioned that. I think it's super important to get to know your own needs, get to know your rhythm, like what is a good working rhythm for me, am I more productive in maybe the morning or the afternoon and...

If you are lucky to have a position where you can choose when you work and under what circumstances, then make use of that. So find out what works best for you. And then learn to set healthy boundaries. The other day, Christine and Laura and me, we did some more interviews with PhD students in Bonn. And...

We heard that setting boundaries is a lot of, I mean, it's just a very important topic and something you should learn to advocate for your own needs and to stay healthy. I mean, this is like, hey, I don't reply to work emails on the weekend, but it's also like, I don't want to get a phone call from my boss when I'm on holiday.

And these seem like very small things, but they're actually really important and really big. And it's not okay to be summoned to the lab on a weekend if it's not agreed upon earlier. And then when you start a PhD or as early on as possible, this is my second point, communicate expectations with your supervisor. Do it as early as possible.

But it's never too late to do that. Communicate on expectations. Say what you expect, what you wish for on a PhD or during your PhD time. And this should go both ways. I mean, you and your supervisor should know what to expect from each other and maybe agree on some guidelines for the PhD time. And I don't mean like having written down rules that everyone signs and you're being kicked out when you...

Hanna Sänger (33:48.764)
when you break these rules, but to just have like working culture guidelines. How often do we meet? How do we prepare for meetings? What do we discuss in meetings? Stuff like that. Yeah, so communicating expectations and being transparent, I think is super important. Then third, I would say, find a peer group to exchange what you're going through.

And I think on the one hand, it's important to have a peer group that is in a similar field as you, or in general, an academic peer group. So people who are going through similar things, because it's really good to hear from time to time, hey, I'm struggling too. I'm not okay too. And that's okay. To support each other during difficult times. And then it's also, I think, super important to have a peer group that is...

outside the academic bubble, just to have that little reality check with people who don't work in academia and who can tell you, hey, it's not normal to work 80 hours a week. You know, just to stay a bit more grounded and not get sucked into the PhD bubble 100%. So keep some touch with the outside academic reality. I think that's really helpful.

Nóra (34:53.547)
Yeah, totally.

Nóra (35:09.611)
Right.

Nóra (35:14.603)
Yeah, like going to a sport club or something like that. So I started to play tennis during my PhD and there I've just met normal people. And I could also talk about it, what I'm doing. And I've always seen the reactions. Okay, do they understand? Do they find it interesting? And I could also just pitch my PhD learning this skill and also meet people who are not from science. And it's so refreshing indeed.

Hanna Sänger (35:18.78)
Yeah.

Hanna Sänger (35:23.868)
Mm -hmm.

Hanna Sänger (35:40.828)
Hahaha!

Nóra (35:42.731)
And I think your points, so I think I didn't set boundaries. And so from two to five, I didn't do anything because I didn't know what are my needs. I think the point one is super important to know yourself, what is important for you. Because for me, for example, it's way more important that if something is burning, then I want to get notified. Also on Sunday or at midnight, if something happened, I want to know about it.

Hanna Sänger (35:53.052)
Mm -hmm.

Nóra (36:12.203)
I don't want to wait until the end of my vacation to get know that, okay, my six months experiment is just gone. But it's really important to know what are your needs and communicate it. And I especially like the point to go out of the PhD bubble time to time.

Hanna Sänger (36:32.476)
I think that's an underestimated point. Yeah. You asked for five points. I have two more. So that was three. I have two more. And I want to repeat one very important thing that we've talked about before. And that is if you need help coping, ask for it. I want to stress that. Ask for help.

Nóra (36:36.939)
Yes, have a reality check. So how do you, yeah, continue.

Okay.

okay.

Mm -hmm.

Nóra (36:57.067)
Yes.

Hanna Sänger (37:01.116)
And I know it takes a lot of courage to admit that you're struggling and that you're not okay. It's okay to not be okay. So ask for help. And personally, yeah, I think it's a sign of really great strength to ask for help. And it's not a weakness. You're not showing weakness when you ask for help. And if you don't know where to seek for help, inquire with the university. If you're at University of Bonn.

You can Google it. There are lots of great workshops. There's psychological counseling. So you can always go there. And if you need more guidance, come ask me. And the last point, I mean, we talked about that science is a passion for most PhD students. So just enjoy that time. I realize that we talk a lot about negative stuff today.

Nóra (37:59.563)
Yes!

Hanna Sänger (38:01.18)
But I mean, that comes with the topic, but it's such an important time in your life. And if you're passionate about it, enjoy it and have fun building a network and discovering what you're good at. And, yeah, don't forget that if science and research is your passion, go out and enjoy it and have a good time discovering amazing stuff.

Nóra (38:03.357)
Right.

Nóra (38:08.427)
Yeah.

Nóra (38:23.115)
Indeed, PhD is, I think, the last phase in the academic education where you can just make crazy science, burn some money really without thinking about it, okay, how do I pay or what is the next funding? And you can just really make bigger mistakes. I think academics in general is a forgiving culture that you can just make mistakes, have crazy ideas that you can test, and if it doesn't work out...

Hanna Sänger (38:31.356)
I'm sorry.

Hanna Sänger (38:51.42)
Mm -hmm.

Nóra (38:52.907)
just also fine. So I think indeed enjoy your PhD is important.

Hanna Sänger (39:00.22)
Yeah, it's good that we got that positive spin on the topic.

Nóra (39:02.283)
Yes! So what do you exactly do for the happy PhD journey or for mental well -being during PhD? How do you support the students?

Hanna Sänger (39:17.628)
So we're now working on designing a program that entails on the one hand workshops for PhD students. So some of our topics are effective time management, burnout prevention, how to be resilient, like how to cope with challenging times, but also how to communicate boundaries and get to know your own needs, stuff like that. And then all three of us,

Nóra (39:20.587)
Mm.

Nóra (39:34.507)
Mm -hmm.

Hanna Sänger (39:45.692)
are going through a coaching training or have completed it. And so we want to offer one -on -one coaching sessions for PhD students. And most important for us is to raise awareness for people during their PhD that if they need help, it is there. So you don't need to wait until burnout or if you're there and you need to wait another couple of months before you get help, that does not work. So we want to...

be there and say, hey, if you need help, we're here. And we're here today and tomorrow. So that people come to us if they have problems, even if it's minor problems. The sooner you seek help, the better. Yeah, and then from the interviews we conducted with PhD students in Bonn, we found that a lot of people are interested in peer groups. So what we mentioned earlier, that they can just exchange about their experiences. So that is also something that we want to set up.

Nóra (40:39.339)
Yeah.

Hanna Sänger (40:45.34)
And yeah, we want to collaborate with universities, starting with University of Bonn. But I mean, you know, the startup center of University of Bonn, we're encouraged to think big. So we're starting in Bonn and see where the journey goes.

Nóra (41:02.987)
Right, very exciting project. I think it's really well needed. So do you target only students who are in need of help or if I'm like a principal investigator or professor, academic staff and I say, hey, I want to become a better boss for my PhD students, can they also approach you?

Hanna Sänger (41:25.724)
Absolutely, we're thinking about that, how to incorporate that perspective into the program. So our primary focus are PhD students. And when I think about that, that we're giving, for example, a resilience training for PhD students, I always have that worry in the back of my head. Are we just treating symptoms here of a system that is not?

Nóra (41:49.619)
Yeah. So even the best PhD student with super mental strengths can go to a toxic working environment and just die.

Hanna Sänger (41:58.108)
Absolutely. Yes. Yes. So sometimes I think, no, we're just treating symptoms, but I find peace in that knowing that if those people, those PhD students who are struggling now and they learn to be mentally healthier scientists, one day they will be investigators leading a research group and they will do it better. So that's what gives me peace. But...

Yes, absolutely. PIs, I think, need training too. Because in science, a lot of the times, positions are given to people with amazing publication records and not with people who have received leadership training before. Yeah. So I don't have a definite answer on that what we could be offering, but we're thinking about it. It's definitely on our radar.

Nóra (42:31.371)
Yes.

Nóra (42:45.835)
Yeah.

Nóra (42:54.443)
Very nice. Yeah, indeed being an amazing scientist doesn't mean that you are an amazing leader. Usually doesn't mean it at all. So we will also put all your contact details to the show notes, but how can we reach you out?

Hanna Sänger (43:02.428)
Sadly no.

Hanna Sänger (43:10.876)
So you can reach the three of us on LinkedIn. I think that is the easiest way because we as a team don't have a website yet. And I'm guessing that you will put our names in the description so people can find us. Perfect. And...

Nóra (43:13.931)
Mm -hmm.

Nóra (43:24.011)
Yes. I will also put your LinkedIn link. Yeah.

Hanna Sänger (43:30.3)
Nice, thank you. Yeah, and I already work as a freelance mental health coach. So I already offer one -on -one coaching and workshops for PhD students. And I can give you my website link and you can also incorporate it and people can reach me anytime.

Nóra (43:37.067)
Mm -hmm.

Nóra (43:48.171)
sure.

Nóra (43:51.659)
Super nice. Hannah, thank you very much. I have one final question or closing. So what's your message to the PhD student who is just listening us now and facing with mental health issues? What should they do in this very moment?

Hanna Sänger (43:57.052)
Mm -hmm.

Hanna Sänger (44:11.164)
I think if they are struggling right now and after hearing this talk, they feel like things are maybe not going so well, take a deep breath, it's all okay. And spend some time thinking about what's important to you and what's important to you as a workplace environment. And think if you have that, what you need. And think about how you can...

make the situation better for yourself, what you can do, what is in your control to change. Yeah, what do you need and are you getting it? And then if you're struggling, it's super okay and super strong to acknowledge that you're struggling and ask for help.

Nóra (45:01.771)
Indeed, listening a podcast on mental health is already a good way to start and just really to recognize, I think that's the first step to really realize that, okay, something is not right and I don't want to go in this way further. I need some action. And then to find an action, I think it's really the most important idea to, the most important tip, just seek for help. And also just check out the show notes, contact Hannah.

Hanna Sänger (45:07.772)
Hehehehe.

Nóra (45:30.891)
get some private exchange and talk about your situation. And I'm sure that as a team, we are always stronger. Hanna, thank you very much. I wish you and your team best of luck and keep in touch. Have a nice day. Bye bye.

Hanna Sänger (45:42.332)
Absolutely.

Hanna Sänger (45:49.34)
Thank you so much for having me and for giving room to this topic. Super important. Thank you.